Q&A with Tom King, President of the NYS Rifle and Pistol Association, NRA Affiliate

Tom King, President of the NYS Rifle and Pistol Association, the National Rifle Association Affiliate in New York State

Speaking about Obama, Romney, Stand Your Ground Laws, Trayvon Martin, and Microstamping.

Interview by

Sean Ewart

Tom King

The Gadfly Press: You were at the National Rifle Association conference [held in St. Louis March 13 – 15], so just tell me a little bit about the national sentiment revolving around guns, gun ownership, and the protection of gun rights.

Tom King: Well there were 74,380 people that attended the annual NRA meeting in St. Louis. I don't think that there is a bigger annual meeting or show for a not-for-profit group in the United States. National sentiment is, if you look at the USA poll, if you look at any of the Zogby polls, a vast majority of the people in the United States support the individual ownership of guns.

TGP: Can you characterize the last 4 years – are gun owners more or less “free” to own and to carry?

TK: Well you know, there hasn't been any new legislation passed because of the NRA and groups like the New York State Rifle and Pistol Association and the New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Association, but the Obama administration has attempted to curtail some of the rights of gun owners through regulation and closing areas where, historically, they have had the right to shoot.

TGP: Can you give me examples?

TK: Yeah, out in Arizona there's some BLM [Bureau of Land Management] Land and over the years, since before I can remember, it's been OK to shoot casually, in a safe manner, and the Obama administration closed that. They have been supporting banning lead ammunition which they are claiming is a pollutant. In fact, the only scientific data that says this is data that comes from the anti-gun and anti-lead groups. Any and all research that has been done by independent people has proven that it's just not so.

TGP: Of course, Obama has not reinstated the assault rifle ban that sunsetted in 2004...

TK: Of course he hasn't, but the first thing he said when he came into office is that he would like to do that but it's not politically expedient... particularly in a first term where he is going to have to go against all of the gun owners in the United States to get reelected. That's why he hasn't done anything in his first term. Its not that he's a supporter – don't even infer that.

TGP: You sense the threat coming more in the second term if he gets reelected?

TK: Oh sure. That's why everybody is so upset. There's a huge move by the United Nations to ban private gun ownership that Obama's people have said they would sign onto. Then it would be up to the Senate to ratify it – but his people have already signified that they would do it in the UN.

TGP: I'm unfamiliar with the United Nations private gun ownership ban...

TK: It's been going on for years. About a month or two ago Wayne LaPierre [the CEO of the NRA] spoke to the UN... let me think about this for just a second... I actually wasn't planning on talking about this. Anyway, there is a small arms treaty that the UN is trying to introduce that would ban small arms ownership in every country that ratified it. The same people that are pushing for this legislation in the UN are the Libyans, Syrians... the Iranians. They are going to be ignoring it anyway. Then you have Britain that has banned gun ownership about 10-12 years ago and now has the highest murder rate and gun crime rate ever. And that's after the ban. The same thing can be said for any of the countries that have banned gun ownership. Then the criminals are the only people with firearms. 

*1) See Editor's note following the article.

A UN treaty supersedes our constitution. How can you, or anybody else, say that you would be in favor of a treaty that would supersede our constitution and doesn't have to be passed by the people and doesn't have to be passed by the House [of representatives] at all... it only has to be passed by the Senate. How could you agree with that? I mean, whether or not it's a gun issue. Gun issues aside.

*2) See Editor's note following the article.

TGP: Do you see any possibility of that getting passed going forward?

TK: Who knows? I mean, we're very, very concerned about this.

TGP: Talk to me about Mitt Romney. He said, in 1994, that he does not “line up with the NRA.” Now, of course, he's a lifetime member, and he's obviously courting the group for support. But what do you think about him? Is he a candidate that you can count on?

TK: [Sighs] … you know... we... we have, of course, discussed this. There has not been a decision made yet... so I... until the NRA makes a statement on their position on Mitt Romney, I am not going to make a statement one way or another.

TGP: Talk to me about the Castle Doctrine and the Stand Your Ground legislation. Twenty-one states have some version of it codified. However, there is already a right to self defense, so what does this law do above and beyond that right?

TK: Well there are some states where the person who is having the crime committed against them has to retreat and that's where this legislation came from and that's what this legislation is pushing to change. Everybody is so worried about this and all this says is that if you feel that your life is in danger, you can defend yourself. That doesn't mean that you can't be arrested, or you can't be charged. I really don't know what the uproar is over this. It's not changing any of the self defense laws other than just saying that you don't have to retreat if you feel threatened.

TGP: People are, of course, in an uproar about this because of the Trayvon Martin incident and because it took so long for George Zimmerman [Trayvon Martin's shooter] to be arrested. Zimmerman is using the law as protection. Do you think that the law has anything to do with the trial whatsoever?

TK: I mean, I don't know what happened there. Do you know what happened there?

TGP: I certainly wasn't there.

TK: No, nor was I. So I'm not going to speak to that because I don't know. There were two people there and one of them is dead. And I am so sorry that... you know, I'm a father, I'm a grandfather, and I love life and I'm sorry that somebody had to die. But I don't know what the situation was. Maybe it was justified, maybe it wasn't. We're going to find out in the court.

TGP: So what are the national objectives of the NRA and, here in New York State, of the Rifle and Pistol Association?

TK: Well our objective is to protect the right to keep and bear arms.

TGP: I mean specifically for legislation you are trying to get passed over the next year.

TK: Well, I don't want to speak for the NRA. The New York State Rifle and Pistol Association has historically played a defensive role stopping any anti-gun legislation. This year we have a bill that we're pushing. It's a reciprocity bill. The reason we are pushing this is because, in the past year and a half to two years, there have been approximately several hundred people arrested in New York airports who were perfectly legal, traveling under FOPA, which is the Firearms Owners Protection Act. It says that, if you are going from point A to point C through point B – as long as your gun is unloaded and packed safely – you can pack it on an airplane and you can travel through any area of the country. The Transportation Authority in New York City has been arresting legal and lawful gun owners at New York City airports who have declared their firearms. TSA has said 'you're fine, you can go' but, for some reason, at New York City airports, there's a standing order – and this is unlike any other airport in the nation – that you have to call the Metropolitan Transportation Authority police and they will arrest anyone who is traveling through there with a firearm. And there's a bill in the legislature to clear that up. We are very much pushing for that because, frankly, it's become an extortion game in all of the New York City airports. They will take your gun, there's a fine, they'll destroy your gun, you have to hire a lawyer, and then they will drop the charges and make it less than a misdemeanor. As far as I'm concerned, that's just extortion.

TGP: Microstamping is a big issue, right? [Microstamping is the process of stamping a small PIN number on bullet cases as they are used in order to trace spent cartridges back to the gun owner.]

TK: Yeah, microstamping is a big issue. Are you familiar with CoBIS? [The Combined Ballistics Identification System is a failed system, in New York State, of tracking bullets back to specific guns. In the 11 years it was in operation in the state, it never helped solve any crimes and has been disbanded.] 12 years ago we told the state CoBIS wouldn't work. We gave them the reasons, we gave them the scientific testing that said it wouldn't work. And yet they believed the manufacturer and patent holder of the process and instituted it. Now somewhere between 20 and 40 million dollars later they decided it doesn't work. We are saying the same thing about microstamping. Microstamping is a technology that is only endorsed by the manufacturer/patent holder, a few legislators, and the Association of Chiefs of Police who are a very political group who do what their mayors tell them to do. The New York State Sheriffs Department has come out against it. The University of California Davis did a peer review test of the technology and they said it didn't work. Suffolk County crime lab, which is one of the premier crime labs in the United States, tested it and said, 'absolutely not, it doesn't work.'

TGP: What would you propose as an alternative? The sentiment behind microstamping, of course, is to provide law enforcement with better tools...

TK: Yeah but that's the hocus-pocus they try to tell you. They said the same thing about CoBIS and it did not work. Even if the technology worked, who are they collecting this data from? They are collecting it from people who are buying new guns from that point forward. If you purchase a pistol, to get your pistol license in New York State, right now it takes a minimum of 6 months investigation. You have to provide 4 or 5 references. You have to submit 4 sets of fingerprints. Local law enforcement, where you are getting your permit, calls your references. They send you a statement that you have to swear, under penalty of perjury, that what you are putting down is the truth. The applicant has to sign his privacy rights away so that both his medical and his psychiatric records can be checked. We go through more scrutiny than most people who have Top Secret clearances. So if I go out and buy a firearm, I am a legal and lawful person, and my gun gets stolen and 2 years later a casing is found on the ground at a crime scene and they trace it back to me, the police say, 'where is your gun?' I say to them, '2 years ago, I reported the gun stolen.” … So where did that take the police?

TGP: Well, and that's the question that I have. There is crime that is committed with guns so what would be a better way to solve gun violence?

TK: Sure. Well, its not "gun related" violence. Its crime related violence. New York State currently paroles and commutes sentences for violent criminals more than any other state in the nation. We have 4 or 5 empty prisons now because it was expensive to keep the prisoners in there, so we let them go. Those people are on the street. They're going to commit crimes. That's what their job is. The Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms have a system, the National Integrated Ballistics Information Network, they have been using for at least 5 or 6 years. That's what Governor Cuomo wants to sign New York into. What NIBIN does is collect a database of criminals and guns and that has been fairly successful. That's what we should be doing. We should be looking for crime within the criminals, not looking towards lawful and legal New York State residents. The FBI says the number of crimes committed with legal firearms is statistically insignificant. Its way less than half a percent. So how could anybody think that by taking information from legal gun owners that they would find out about crimes that are being committed? Microstamping and CoBIS are methods to get people not to sell firearms in New York State. Many gun manufacturers have said that they wouldn't sell guns in the state if microstamping gets passed. And yet the legislators are still pushing for it. Seven years ago the state of California passed the microstamping bill and a provision of that legislation was that the bill would not be implemented until the Attorney General believed that the technology was fool-proof enough and that the cost to the gun manufacturers would be an insignificant amount. Seven years later it is still not implemented because the AG doesn't believe it will work. Microstamping is too easy to circumvent. Someone could bring into my office a pistol that has been microstamped and they could walk out in 5 minutes and you wouldn't be able to trace it.

TGP: Because you can file it down?

TK: Yeah, you can deface it enough so that the numbers won't be readable. And you can change the firing pin, where they want to put the stamp. There aren't any new guns. There are new models of guns but they use a lot of common parts like the firing pin...

TGP: They also want to put it on the breach face.

TK: Well that won't work. The guns won't operate that way. That was something they just added to the latest part of the legislation. That's technically impossible. The guns won't work. And the manufacturers will never, ever do that.

TGP: Why won't that work?

TK: What they are saying is they can put a raised number inside the gun so that when the brass casing expands after the bullet is fired the number is imprinted on it. But then the bullet won't eject and the gun won't work. But that's something that nobody listens to, either. 

The Gadfly Press appreciates Tom King taking the time to talk with us. For more information about the New York State Rifle and Pistol Association and the National Rifle Association, feel free to check out their website.

 *1) Editor's note: gun violence and homicides reached their lowest levels since the 1997 private firearm ban in Britain in 2009-2010 despite peaking slightly in the mid-2000's.*

*2) Editor's note: the UN treaty in question would not supersede the constitution and would not restrict gun ownership in the United States. For more about the UN treaty on small arms and President Obama's gun policies more generally, read this article from Fact Check.*